21st CenturyWire correspondant Arnaud DEVELAY caught up with elected Member of the Russian State Duma and Ranking Member of the Duma’s Commission for International Affairs, Maria BUTINA.
Q: Let us start with what has been a crackdown on free speech around the world with the raid on Scott Ritter’s house, the arrest of individuals in the UK for merely posting comments on social networks and the arrest in France of Telegram founder and CEO, Pavel Durov. What can you tell us about this worrying development?
Maria Butina: I view it as purely political in nature. First of all, there’s a saying in Russia that says that the hand is to be viewed separately from the “master.” While France acted as “the hand”, the “master” is to be found across the ocean in the United States. This reminds me of he case of Alexander Vinnick who was first arrested in Greece before being extradited to France and then the United States. He was accused of all kind of crimes which he never committed. It doesn’t mean that the French government is not guilty but they agreed to play along, which is something that makes me sad because France is a great country with a great people. With the Durov arrest unfortunately, France’s role allows the US to deny responsibility. However, everybody knows what’s going on. It’s a purely politically-motavated arrest. It’s a blatant case of double standard where Russia (and China) are being blamed for disregarding freedoms by countries who themselves trample civil liberties. With Durov, there’s also the element of demonizing the person by accusing him of all kinds of things, including hitting his own child, while constantly repeating that he’s Russian (an aggravating factor?). They did the same thing with me. Despite the report provided by John Durham dismissing any notion of so-called Russian interference, the US media presented me as the key actor behind a plot designed to interfere in US elections. I was called the “Witch.” It’s important for them to portray Russians are devoid of any kind of humanity as if lacking a soul. Even though French and Russians fought side by side during the Great Patriotic War, everything today seems forgotten.
Q: So you think this (the Durov Case) is all part of a psychological operation aimed at demonizing Russians; a classic case of Russophobia?
Maria Butina: Yes. I call it psychological warfare for the simple reason that I have myself been subjected to it. I have witnessed it firsthand and gone through all of its stages. Many US media outlets first mentioned that “she may be a spy.” Step two consisted in repeating these inuandos. Finally, step three was the actual arrest which was staged with as many artifice and witnesses as possible. The idea was to lure the public like children into believing the narrative. As far as Durov is concerned, the West was trying to gain control of Telegram for a long time. That’s why they finally decided to snatch him.
Q: Do you believe Durov was kind of naive?
Maria Butina: I believe he was naive only inthusfar as I was myself also naive a long time ago. He believed in justice. He believed that he could be himself (love his country) while living in an area of the world that has long strived to portray Russia as the evil empire. Durov thought he could be safe in France. The truth is that the only place that is safe for him is the Russian Federation. In that respect, Durov found his own truth.
Q: There were reports that the Russian embassy in PARIS unsuccesfully attempted to establish contact with Durov during his detention in violation of the provision bearing on consular assistance as callled for by the Vienna Convention. What is your reaction?
Maria Butina: That’s a very serious violation of the rights of a citizen of a foreign country. Local authorities should have notified representatives of the Russian Federation and allowed consular assistance within 72 hours of the arrest. This being said, the West doesn’t abide by any rules anymore. It doesn’t matter whether Durov holds several passports. That’s actually what also happened to me. Consular officers were looking for me after US authorities purposefully altered my date of birth and mispelled my name so that the personnel at the embassy couldn’t find me. Is that respectful of the Vienna Convention? This being said and while the West violates international laws, Russia continues to follow them. Somebody has to remain sane in all this.
Q: You wrote a book chronicling your detention in the US (#Prison Diary). Could you remind our viewers what happened to you?
Maria Butina: I spent 467 days in detention in the United States stemming from charges of conspiracy to operate as an agent of a foreign power in violation of the Foreign Agent Registration Act (FARA). I was convicted on appeal even though noboby else’s name ever appeared in the court record. How can I conspire with myself? I was a straight A student studying for a Master’s degree and next thing you know, I was finding myself at the heart of the Russian collusion hysteria, standing accused of being this seductress who had slept with many US Senators, even though none ever came forward to corroborate this allegation. I was sentenced to 18 months in jail including 4 months in solitary confinement. While I eventually was released and deported, nobody ever apologized for what I had to go through. I will never get this time back either. It was also alleged that I was receiving funds straight from the Kremlin to use while I was in the US. Prior to my conviction, the FARA had only been used one time to secure conviction against an Iranian. I was the first Russian to be targeted on these grounds in 60 years going back to the Red Scare of the 1950s. So after I served time and got deported in October 2019, I decided to write a book which today has been published in Russian, Engish and Serbian. I hope it will serve as a cautionary tale to people similarly situated that this law can be used against you anytime someone who happens to be Russian asks you to do something. I also explain that all the incriminating elements used to convict me are under seal for the next 60 years owing to the fact that there are all fabricated or non-existent.
No names of senators, no evidence of funds. Again, how can one conspire with onself? Of note, before I was charged and convicted, they showed a movie called the Red Sparrow which retraces the story of a Russian seductress to infiltrated US political circles (circus is more appropriate). I mean, why was I even placed in solitary confinement for 117 days? I was not a terrorist hiding in some Afghan mountain! I was just a student! Today, I am deemed an enemy of the United States prohibited from ever setting foot in that country. But you know what? I don’t care.
Q: This is somewhat reminiscent of the Hollywood film Lord of War, starring Nicholas Cage which purported to retrace the life of Viktor Bout. Obviously, this depiction couldn’t be more removed from reality. Viktor was eventually involved in a swap (with Britney Briner) in late 2022. Recently, the largest swap since the days of the first Cold War involving no less than 26 political prisonners and spies. What could you tell us about this?
Maria Butina: I actually met Viktor at the airport when he was released and brought back to Russia. I know him and his wife very well. She’s endured so much during the 15 years of her husband’s detention. To your point about the big swap, it happened during the first Cold War in what came to be known as the Spy Bridge. As to whether something similar could happen with Durov, it depends on hard and sometimes long negotiations between the two sides. Russia has for instance tried to bring Viktor back for many years. The big surprise for me is that despite the fact that the US still has some of its citizens imprisoned in Russia, they would rather try to secure release of some non-citizens like Russian so-called “opposition leaders.” That tells you everything you need to know about their (the US) priorities. They prefer to gain release of non-citizens to use them later for propaganda. If I was a US citizen, I would start wondering whether my government’s priority is to protect the interests of its own citizens.
Q: You’re alluding to the purported frustration of Paul Wheelan after Griner was chosen over him?
Maria Butina: Well, Paul Wheelan was convicted of spying of course. But they could have chosen Marc FOGEL over a person who’s merely a green-card holder as was the case in the most recent swap.
Q: Hillary Clinton has stated in September 2023 that in her opinion, “it was likely Russia would interfere in the upcoming US presidential election.” In the wake of the ramping up of articles citing your name explicitly and published both in the Wall Street Journal and Washington Post despite the fact that you’ve technically been out of the news there since at least 2019, do you think the US establishment might prepare a smearing campaign with you at its center?
Maria Butina: In capitalism, if you can profit from something repeatedly by selling the same thing with the result that people will buy it, then sell it again. If people can again be sold the idea of Russia interfering in the US election process, it will be used. Hillary Clinton claims that “Russians will again interfere in our elections.” I don’t agree with such characterization of the facts. The US own report on Russian collusion (John Durham) concluded that there had never been such interference in the first place. How can she say that something like this will happen again when the original allegations were revealed as being nothing but lies and fabrications? Again, the truth is that the US has spent substantial resources in creating the case of the “evil Russian”. As long as they feel people can be convinced that it’s true, they will resort to using it again. Truth be told, Russia does not care one bit about who wins the election. Sure, Trump said nice things about Russia. Should we not feel a sense of reciprocity to someone who is nice to you? This being said, with Kamala Harris, we have someone who’s come out of nowhere and even though she hasn’t spent time on the campaign trail is running neck and neck with the opposition candidate. I find this strange. In the end, I believe that she has very good chances because the system can be fixed to get the “right” result. I expect ramped up anti-Russia rethoric as we get closer to the election. Why? Because anti-Russia politics is what the US wants and Maria Butina is a perfect foil.
Q: Let’s switch to ideological migration to Russia. President Putin’s recently signed a decree on spiritual asylum calling for Russia to offer sanctuary to ‘refugees’ from ‘neoliberal’ values
Which countries will be concerned and how many applicants are expected?
Maria Butina: This is a very important decree but by no means unprecedented. Russia has throughout its long history adopted policies of that kind starting during the time of IVAN III when scores of people from Germany, France and Italy resettled in Russia to work and live in regions where their freedom to practice their cult would not suffer persecutions. This decree follows in that tradition by providing spiritual asylum without the obligation to speak Russian. I am personally very involved in this file as a member of the commission on international affairs. It is important to streamline/simplify the bureaucratic logjam to facilitate the implementation of the presidential decree. I can be personnally contacted to provide advice to those who seek it. For instance, whether one wants to be a farmer or a professional, we can help them to settle down. What’s important is that under no circumstances will their children be taken away from them on account of their refusal to adhere to LGBT ideology. Russia favors traditional family values; that’s what we are concerned with. Russia is the family. Those who would want to harm Russia’s reputation have engaged in smear campaigns for ages. The difference today is that people can find out the truth thanks to social networks. As we speak, there are already hundreds if not thousands of people currently living in Russia. They may not speak Russian, they may not seek to become Russian citizens; that’s fine. At this point, it is hard to evaluate the volume of people who might decide to participate in this program. It obviously will be contingent on the increased crackdown exerted on their beliefs by Western governments. What is clear is that Germany tops the rankings of countries where we get the most enquiries, owing to social services going as far as removing children from households where the parents are expressing dismay towards LGBT ideology. If for instance, a kid states that he or she wants to undergo “gender reassigment”: the fact that one or both of the parents objects to it is considered child abuse and this will lead to the child being placed in a LGBT household. For most of us, whether you’re Christian, Muslim or Budhist, it goes against our common core beliefs. In terms of schedule, we expect the procedure to be in place within a month. Finally, I must say that it pains me to see how the beautiful European civilization has been completely destroyed by ideologies concocted in the United States. We as French, Italian and Russians have a long and rich history which the United States does not have. They seek to steal and/or eradicate it the way they attempted to eradicate the history of Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria.. I think Europeans should boost their self-esteem for they have much to be proud of in terms of heritage.
Q: Do you think the presidential decree could help boost Russian demography?
Maria Butina: It’s not an issue of demography. We value quality over quantity. We first and foremost seek people who will fit within the contours delineated by the decree on spiritual asylum. It’s not about numbers per se. We don’t view individuals as numbers but as souls. We seek people who will help us develop the country and reinforce our national community in the spirit of the Third Rome.
Q: The war in Ukraine has seen a rise in criminal practices linked to various forms of trafficking, in particular trafficking in human beings (complete or organs). How has the war in Ukraine impacted human trafficking? What information on this subject is currently available to the Russian authorities?
Maria Butina: The reports we are getting are awful. Organs are being directly removed from wounded Ukrainian soldiers. Such practice flies in the belief that human beings have souls. Russian troops have entered areas where signs directly advertized the sale of organs. I don’t believe these responsible for such heinous practice will escape God’s Punishment. That’s why it is important that you inform Western audiences about what goes on there. Similarly, look at the biolabs. They were literally testing their pathogens on people living nearby. We seized documents relating to how each test sample would be earmarked for 400 USD. They would then proceed on behalf of big pharma to test experimental drugs on locals. Do you know that it is actually against the law to engage in such experimentation in the United States? Russia considers it its sacred duty to put an end to such practice. Any country which looks the other way and allows this to happen in complete disregard for human dignity has abandoned decency. In my opinion, it’s also something that relates to the reasons why people would want to move to Russia under the new decree on spiritual asylum.
Q: President Putin has declared that there won’t be any kind of negotiation with Kiev, a regime that essentially engages in state-sponsored terrorism. The illegitimate self-proclaimed “president” of Ukraine is moreover looking to perpetuate a war which has cost his country nearly half a million casualties against all military logic. In the wake of the Kursk incursion and repeated attempts to shell nuclear facilities, do you feel he situation could spiral out if control?
Maria Butina: Hopefully, it won’t. Obviously, the group of people in Kiev is not interested in preserving the lives of its own people. Quite the contrary. They will thus continue to escalate in order to justify receiving financial assistance which will then be diverted for their own gain. The idea is to continue stealing as much land as possible. Russia will thus remain steady in pursuing and accomplishing the goals set out at the beginning of the Special Military Operation. It’s tough but we won’t relent until the mission is completed. We know that the real puppet master is in the US and while we hope to see changes after the next US presidential election, we are not naive enough to think that the conflict will be resolved in 24 hours per Trump’s words.
About the Author
ARNAUD DEVELAY is a lawyer specializing in international criminal law who began his career in 2005 under the mentorship of former US Attorney General RAMSEY CLARK, in representing former Iraqi President SADDAM HUSSEIN and his companions before the Occupation Tribunal. DEVELAY then took part in the defense of ILITCH RAMIREZ SANCHEZ, and advised figures in the YELLOW VEST movement, before spending two years in the Syrian Arab Republic, reporting on the deleterious effects of the sanctions regime imposed on this country following the publication of the so-called CESAR “report” in the USA, and its insertion in the National Defense Authorization Act of 2020.
DEVELAY joined the Russian Federation at the initiative of the Electoral Commission to carry out an observation mission in the context of the referenda organized in the New Regions in September 2022. He continued these activities for the September 2023 regional elections and the March 2024 presidential elections.
DEVELAY is a regular contributor to the Russian magazine Persona Strani, as well as to 21st Century Wire, Strategika and Covert Action Magazine. He has appeared on the following radio programs: the Mother of All Talk Shows, TNT Radio, Sunday Wire, Live on the Fly, Syriana Analysis, Brochu en Direct, etc.
DEVELAY is the author of FOREIGN ENTANGLEMENTS: BIDEN, UKRAINE AND THE FRACTURING OF THE AMERICAN POLITICAL CONSENSUS (2024, Clarity Press).
